God, the Devil, and Sinners: A Discussion Post

[aunt_zelda]

I get into the oddest discussions late at night, coming home from theater practice (which, btw, when pretty well tonight).
The gist of it was that the theory of sinners going to hell and eternally suffering doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Wouldn't the Devil be nice to people who kinda stuck it to God? Wouldn't tormenting them be doing God's will? Isn't the Devil's purpose in life to defy God?
Also, I don't really believe that there's one being controlling this all. There's gotta be a whole team, at least. If there isn't, God would get stressed ...
(Please discuss! I know very little about religion, most of my knowledge has been obtained from Dante's The Inferno - which I have MANY issues with - and going to church when I was about three.)

Comments

[trippypeas.livejournal.com]

What i think is that the Devil punishes sinners because...it's his job..even though God has banished him he still feels required to follow his directions..he's being punisheed.. or maybe it's just the fat that hell is made for Sinners and Satan is one...or something..

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

it's his job..even though God has banished him he still feels required to follow his directions
But that doesn't make any sense! I thought he hated God ... so why do God's bidding? Wouldn't hell be kinda ... FUN for a sinner ... there are all these people like you around, death metal, raves ... at least, that's how I would picture it ...

[trippypeas.livejournal.com]

No..see that's not what happens..Hell is dark and black, with flames and unbearable heat...it's filled with the vermin and worms of all the world that gnaw and claw at your flesh and you're always alone..people in hell are always alone..they never seen any one else...it's just you and the dark and the flames and the worms and bugs crawling across your flesh..and everynightmare you've ever head..

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

How can it be dark with flames?
If you're alone, what exactly do the Devil and the demons do? Watch? Laugh? Run torture-programs? And what exactly merits getting INTO such a place?! Do you stay there forever or is there hope of getting out? Wouldn't you go insane? Then what would be the point of tormenting sinners if they'll just go crazy? That's a lot of crazy people taking up space in Hell ...

[trippypeas.livejournal.com]

You don't see the flames you feel them..the devil doesn't have time to do anything he's being punished as well..there isn't really a way to get out of hell..

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

the devil doesn't have time to do anything he's being punished as well
So God has power over the Devil? I thought that the Devil defied God and went off to Hell and God didn't hold any sway over him anymore ...

there isn't really a way to get out of hell..
Hm. So what merits getting into hell? It's not like prison, where whatever you did gets a different sentence from that other guy?

[trippypeas.livejournal.com]

*sighs* i knew this would be a bad idea..those who defy god and his laws are sent to hell..those who do not repent for their sins..basically...this would be easier if my friend was still home..

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

*sighs* i knew this would be a bad idea
My debate or your posts? I think this in incredibly illuminating, you seem to know quite a bit!

those who defy god and his laws are sent to hell..those who do not repent for their sins
What if they repent after centuries in the dark with flames and bugs and rats?! But they'd be too insane by that point to repent, so ... what's the point of all this? You do wrong and don't regret it: go to hell ... forever ... seems a bit odd ...

[trippypeas.livejournal.com]

*sighs* i attend church regularly..in fact i'm actually a sunday school teacher..

what i've gathered..is that if you repent while you're alive..you won't have to..what i'm guessing is that god gives you plenty of chances to repent while you're alive..so if your in hell it's your choice..

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

in fact i'm actually a sunday school teacher..
Wow ... and WHY exactly are you a predominate slash authoress? Doesn't the Lord shun gays? Aren't you supporting SINNERS? *is kidding, but still curious*

is that if you repent while you're alive..you won't have to..what i'm guessing is that god gives you plenty of chances to repent while you're alive..so if your in hell it's your choice..
Still seems kinda harsh for this so called 'all loving, accepting' God ...

[trippypeas.livejournal.com]

I write slash because i love it...and what i believe,this is where my church and i disagree.. is that homosexuality is not a sin and if it is it's no greater than any other sin.. all sin is equal in the eyes of god..people just bring more attention to it because it makes them uncomfortable..i mean who do you know that is uncomfortable to lie once and a while...

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

all sin is equal in the eyes of god..people just bring more attention to it because it makes them uncomfortable
Hmm ... interesting point ... wouldn't murder be a higher degree of sin? I'd be more angry about murder or adultery than a lie once and a while or defying your parents a bit.

[trippypeas.livejournal.com]

people rate sins..not god..all sin is equal..and also the bible warns fathers not to aggravate their children to much..anyway...discriminating against the gay community goes against one of the ten commandments anyway. "love thy neighbor" and on should not judge and point out other people's sins before examining their own..

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

discriminating against the gay community goes against one of the ten commandments anyway. "love thy neighbor" and on should not judge and point out other people's sins before examining their own..
So true. And the rest of the world doesn't realize that BECAUSE?!

[trippypeas.livejournal.com]

*sighs* because a person can be smart but People..are stupid..and easily confused and easily swayed to the side of whoever's voice is the loudest..

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

*sighs* because a person can be smart but People..are stupid..and easily confused and easily swayed to the side of whoever's voice is the loudest..
You are very wise ... you slash-author Yoda you ...

[trippypeas.livejournal.com]

*Laughs* surprisingly that's not the first time someone's called me that...

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

Wow ...

[trippypeas.livejournal.com]

*laughs* yeahh...lifes weird...

[whatwas.livejournal.com]

wow..... you've totally stunned me because I've never really thought of it that way....... o.O

I'm not really religious either..... so yeah, you sort of turned my brain to mush right now.....[laughs]

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

wow..... you've totally stunned me because I've never really thought of it that way....... o.O
I get very philosophical late at night ... this is sometimes a bad thing ...

I'm not really religious either.....
I don't know what I'm going to be yet. I'm leaning towards Hinduism, and I'm defiantly not going to be Christian.

So yeah, you sort of turned my brain to mush right now
No! Sorry! Look out, Sylar will arrive with a straw!

[whatwas.livejournal.com]

I get very philosophical late at night ... this is sometimes a bad thing ...
[laughs]..... well that's better than me, because I don't think I ever get philosophical.......


don't know what I'm going to be yet. I'm leaning towards Hinduism, and I'm defiantly not going to be Christian.
well I was "raised" Catholic, but I just find to much hypocrisy in the actual religion to actually be devoted to it..... for me, I'm just content in believing in God, that he exists and that once we die, we move on to another form of life, whether it's as angels or ghost or what have you I still find debatable, but w/e.........


No! Sorry! Look out, Sylar will arrive with a straw!
[laughing]...... I don't think he could use them if their already mushy...... ;)

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

well that's better than me, because I don't think I ever get philosophical.......
Perhaps if I ever got drunk, that's what would happen - I'd be spurring philosophical debates ... oh dear *vows never to get drunk*

for me, I'm just content in believing in God, that he exists and that once we die, we move on to another form of life, whether it's as angels or ghost or what have you I still find debatable, but w/e.........
That makes an awful lot of sense ...

I don't think he could use them if their already mushy...... ;)
Well, maybe he eats brains for fun! Or maybe he doesn't eat them at all! Or maybe he'll freeze your brains and put them back in your head, as he could be a brain surgeon if he wanted ...

[aheartfulofyou.livejournal.com]

Technically, I think what Dante said (and maybe some doctrine?) is that the Devil himself is stuck in Hell, and Hell itself is this really torturous place, so he's being tortured, too, as are the rest of the sinners/demons/whatever.

HOWEVER. I was raised Catholic and really, really turned away from it-- I'm now some combination of Buddhism and, uh, something else. Basically, I believe the purpose in life is living and experiencing everything you possibly can, and after death you either a) reincarnate if you need to experience more things OR if you've done wrong you need to make up for, or b) if you've accomplished/experienced enough, you simply become part of the universe/life, and are at peace, etc. I'm up for a transition period where you can meet people, etc, or do weird combinations of things found in other afterlife ideas, but essentially, yes. That's just me, though, and really has nothing to do with Catholic doctrine. God-wise, I believe in some sort of live giving power, that can probably take different shapes, but nothing so concrete as a very specific God.

Anything specific about Catholicism you'd like to know, though, feel free to ask. I, sadly, know a lot about it.

So, all my opinion. Also, "Hey Jude" is originally by The Beatles, if that's the version you're listening to. ;) Feel free to discuss/argue/anything some more with me! I'm totally up for it. I like this kind of discussion.

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

Is that the Devil himself is stuck in Hell, and Hell itself is this really torturous place, so he's being tortured, too, as are the rest of the sinners/demons/whatever.
Hmmm ... but I thought God was all loving and stuff ... reading Dante got me severely freaked out at how SCARY God sounds ... I'd be more afraid of HIM than the Devil, I think ...

I was raised Catholic and really, really turned away from it-- I'm now some combination of Buddhism and, uh, something else.
Good for you! (I bet your parents freaked ... several of my relations are still getting used to me being VEGETARIAN for cryin' out loud ...)

Also, "Hey Jude" is originally by The Beatles, if that's the version you're listening to.
Thankies! *feels foolish* I thought they sang it, but wasn't quite sure ...

Hmm, how exactly to Catholics explain evolution? I mean, doesn't the Bible say 'God created man' and then there's Adam standing around, but it doesn't say 'God created molecules, that became fish, that became lizards, that branched off into mammals, that began apes, that turned into slouching-man, that became man' nor does it say 'God created man ... and several fossils of ape-man.
Also, what the general belief about gays? That's something that's always ticking me off IMMENSELY. I could have sworn I heard something about 'God loves everyone.' But if God allegedly creates everyone, he'd create gays. And according to Dante, they'd go straight to hell afterwards, so God would create people to suffer in society and go right to hell ... kinda malicious and cruel! Please explain ...

[aheartfulofyou.livejournal.com]

Hmmm ... but I thought God was all loving and stuff

My God/life-giving being is all loving, but definitely not everyone's, and when Catholicism preaches an all-loving God, it's coveniently ignoring the parts of its God that isn't loving. There are a lot of contradictory things that don't quite fit in Catholicism (and in every religion, truthfully), so people can't look for everything to make sense 100%, because often it doesn't, especially if it's a more strict/severe religion.

Good for you! (I bet your parents freaked ...

Thank you! And yes, they definitely are. My mom cried for about a week, which I think is a little ridiculous, considering she was reacting like I had come out to her or something. Which is one thing I HAVEN'T done yet, and I can only imagine how that'll turn out if me changing religions had this much of an affect on her. Yikes.

Strict Catholics say evolution doesn't exist, and they basically ignore everything science says, but most modern Catholics explain it by not taking the Genesis chapter of the Bible literally, and saying God was the one who made things evolve, etc, so indirectly, he did create everything. *Shrugs*.

Oh, and regarding gay people, get this: the Catholic teaching for homosexuality is "hate the sin, love the sinner," which I find absolutely ridiculous. Basically, it says that good Catholics should disapprove of gay behavior, but still love gay people anyway and hope that they'll see the light (*rolls eyes*) and change and turn straight. Basically, to pray for their souls, etc, but not hate them personally. Also, that if gay people repent and don't act on their same-sex "impulses", they'll go to Heaven-- if not? Hell. This is another huge problem I have with the Catholic Church, least of all because I'm gay. It's taken me some time to deal with leftover Catholic guilt, but now? I don't believe any of it, and I never feel that I'm doing something wrong by being a girl and having feelings for girls. I'm not denying myself and getting into crappy relationships with guys I don't care about (which I tried for some time) so I'm doing something good for myself and others, rather than something wrong. I do think that the Catholic belief on this does come down to saying God is malicious and cruel, like you said, and I definitely don't go for that. So there. Catholicism is really not so much my friend anymore. :D

Feel free to ask more questions!

[aheartfulofyou.livejournal.com]

P.S. I see you said you're leaning towards Hinduism, so feel free to ask me stuff about Hinduism or Buddhism, too, since I researched those a LOT in considering what religion I wanted to follow. :D

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

My God/life-giving being is all loving, but definitely not everyone's, and when Catholicism preaches an all-loving God, it's coveniently ignoring the parts of its God that isn't loving.
But why would anyone worship a NON-loving God? I'd run and hide from a scary God who's ALL SEEING and stuff ...

My mom cried for about a week, which I think is a little ridiculous, considering she was reacting like I had come out to her or something. Which is one thing I HAVEN'T done yet, and I can only imagine how that'll turn out if me changing religions had this much of an affect on her. Yikes.
You haven't come out yet? *huggles you* I hope your parents accept you for who you were BORN AS and don't try to send you to scary centers where they try to de-gay you (my cousin went to one ... he got wicked depressed ... and my dad was in the closet for several years because HIS mom was very anti-gay ...)

Strict Catholics say evolution doesn't exist, and they basically ignore everything science says, but most modern Catholics explain it by not taking the Genesis chapter of the Bible literally, and saying God was the one who made things evolve, etc, so indirectly, he did create everything. *Shrugs*.
Hmmm ... the second one I could sorta believe, I sometimes think that a force or being or something poked the molecules that spurred on all the galaxies and planets and just decided to sit back and watch ... if much more was done, things would get out of hand ...

"hate the sin, love the sinner," which I find absolutely ridiculous.
Does sound a bit like someone scribbled it in at the last minute.

and hope that they'll see the light (*rolls eyes*) and change and turn straight.
*growls* You are BORN gay, you don't BECOME gay, it's not a PHASE, and pretending to be something you're not is HARMFUL TO YOUR MENTAL STATE. *is very vehement about this*

Also, that if gay people repent and don't act on their same-sex "impulses", they'll go to Heaven-- if not? Hell.
Say what? I though God supported free will? And if he CREATES GAY PEOPLE, he's telling them to deny their true nature, which sound more like a sin (though a justified one, since society is HORRIBLE) to me ...

I'm not denying myself and getting into crappy relationships with guys I don't care about (which I tried for some time)
*huggles you again*

I'm doing something good for myself and others, rather than something wrong.
*claps* (You've 'seen the light' in my book.)

P.S. About Hinduism, what's the general mood towards gays and lesbians? That's usually the first thing I check with a religion ... if they don't like my dad, I move on ...

[aheartfulofyou.livejournal.com]

You haven't come out yet? *huggles you* I hope your parents accept you for who you were BORN AS and don't try to send you to scary centers where they try to de-gay you (my cousin went to one ... he got wicked depressed ... and my dad was in the closet for several years because HIS mom was very anti-gay ...)

*Huggles back*. Thanks. I came out to all of my friends (who have totally accepted me like I figured they would) and I'm very open about it in that way, but I haven't come out to my parents yet. I'm going to wait until I'm a little less under their influence (probably once I finish my first four years of college, so they're not paying for anything of mine, etc) just in case they completely freak out, which they might. Sorry about the crap your cousin probably had to go through. :( And I think it's really cool that your dad's out and that his family/you is/are clearly supportive.

*More huggles*. Thanks. I'm very vehement about gay rights and very against any religion that proclaims homosexuality to be unnatural or whatever, too. *Growls at close-minded people*.

Also, from what I gathered, Hinduism doesn't really talk about gays/lesbians at all, but generally the religion's frowned on it or at least been hesitant to embrace the goodness in all emotions, gay or straight. So, not flat-out damnation, but not exactly acceptance either. Buddhism's better about it! I'm pretty sure it says it's okay, although there are other little things about Buddhism I'm not totally for, which is why it really only makes up part of my beliefs. And, of course, pagan religions like Wicca, etc, are pro-gay. :)

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

Sorry about the crap your cousin probably had to go through.
He's living on his own now, pretty happy. He and his brother (also gay - sorta out) were at my large relations gathering a few weeks back. They seemed happy - but then they went to visit their mom - my aunt (who has some mental issues and is going through a divorce with my uncle - who's my blood relation - but it's dragging and painful and very sad) blames my cousins for all her problems, and my uncle has trouble accepting his sons ... it's a pretty tough situation ...

*Growls at close-minded people*.
*joins you in the growling* I'm so gonna be in marches when Gay Marriage goes to Congress ... I've got signs planned!

Hinduism doesn't really talk about gays/lesbians at all, but generally the religion's frowned on it or at least been hesitant to embrace the goodness in all emotions, gay or straight.
Hmmm ... *is confuzzled*

And, of course, pagan religions like Wicca, etc, are pro-gay. :)
Yay! One of my friends is Wiccan ... I think. Possibly Pagan, or Wiccan, I can't remember ... she knows an awful lot about it, though and got into a horrific debate with my other friend (Christian, pretty accepting but got riled up that day) and I was all caught in the middle and confused as usual.

[betterthanlegos.livejournal.com]

Ack..I'm agnostic..and always wondering about stuff...and this makes my head hurt..*wonders some more*

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

Sorry ... my head hurts too!
I looked up 'agnostic' on dictionary.com, but I don't understand ... do you believe that if a person knows everything they're wrong?

[betterthanlegos.livejournal.com]

Hah. No. It's just I'm not sure about a lot of things and constantly think about things until my head esplodes.

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

Poor you! Sounds like what I am currently!

[herverylowness.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna go with the while view of hell that is seen in the Sandman comics myself. It seems to make sense to me, where people who go to hell are there to tourture themselves because they feel guilty. Lucifer is there to oversee it all because he can no longer return to The Silver City. (explored more here as well, a great read!)

Lucifer HATES being in hell, and while he doesn't agree with everything that God does, he's not totally against the guy either. Think of him as Chaotic Neutral.

[aunt-zelda.livejournal.com]

I've never read Sandman (didn't Neil Gaiman do those? I just finished Stardust ... LOVED IT!)*follows link* That sounds kinda creepy ...

where people who go to hell are there to tourture themselves because they feel guilty.
Hmm ... that's interesting ... so we create our own hell if we go there?

Lucifer HATES being in hell, and while he doesn't agree with everything that God does, he's not totally against the guy either. Think of him as Chaotic Neutral.
Ah. Put it in D&D terms, and I get it ...